PHAEDRUS LIVES! Source: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/egr-list/message/242 ******************************************************** From: Christopher LockeDate: Tue Feb 5, 2002 5:42 pm Subject: EGR: Watching the Detectives See also http://www.rageboy.com/blogger.html ******************************************************** "I warn you that what you're starting to read is full of loose ends and unanswered questions. It will not be neatly tied up at the end, everything resolved and satisfactorily explained. Not by me it won't, anyway. Because I can't say I really know what happened, or why, or just how it began, how it ended, or if it has ended; and I've been right in the thick of it." opening paragraph The Invasion of the Body Snatchers "The machines rose from the ashes of the nuclear fire. Their war to exterminate mankind had raged for decades, but the final battle would not be fought in the future. It would be fought here, in our present..." opening screen crawl The Terminator Valued Readers: There is a section of this book I've been trying to write for a year now -- trying, that is, to understand what it wants to become -- called "Reading Bookstores." It's a difficult practice to explain. I say practice, not concept, because it's something I've noticed, over the years, that I do. Though "practice" makes it sound way too procedural. As if I have a plan when I go into a Borders or a Barnes & Noble. Plans are obstructions if what you're looking for, something, you don't know what yet, is not in this book or that one, not on this shelf or the one over there, but maybe, if you let go of looking, somewhere in the space between. Invisible yet calling to be seen. Bookstores are full of ghosts for me, of ancient ancestors and unborn heroes. For instance, though it's sort of a sideways instance, I've lately been coming across the word "triumphalism" -- I mean, more than once, more than twice. I don't remember where. The first time I see one of these things, these ghosts -- as in Zeitgeist, spirit of the times -- it's just another word, a phrase, idea. One of the billions swirling around, connected I assume, to something, though I'm usually not at all sure to what. Will the circle be unbroken? As if some southern congregation is praying we will come to understand. What would they need to know if they knew enough to do that? I am doing that myself. Sometimes I think: if anyone followed me around when I'm browsing like this, for hours at a time, they would likely wonder if I was sane. Funny, because that's what I'm thinking myself. Is it just the sorts of things that I've been reading, dipping into, just the pages I've been hitting on the web? Is it just me, or is "triumphalism" being invoked more often to explain... what? I'm not even sure what it means. And the OED -- a dictionary, as Oxford University Press will tell you, built on historical principles -- is of limited help here. Because what it means, this echo I'm getting today, was not there yesterday. What it means is lurking in that invisible delta. Mekong, youkong, Ho Chi Min. Suit up, baby, lock and load, we're going in. The source books on postmodernism -- what came before and what comes after? because the ghosts will not just go away -- begin with unintended irony. Ferdinand de Saussure taught a course in general linguistics, they say, which was only reconstructed years later from his students' notes. Digging, excavating, doing the dirty thankless diachronic spadework. Ironic and thankless because he said, if I have this right, diachronic history obscures synchronic use. Parole beats langue like rock beats scissors. My father was a philologist. There's a word I noticed one day had gone missing. Though I'm not sure what that one means either. Paul de Man (yeah, I know all about it) wrote an article in the title of which the word philology appears. I've been meaning to read it one of these days. And over there on that shelf, C. Wright Mills, who I liked as a kid when he wrote about Cuba, is saying: "The sociological imagination enables us to grasp history and biography and the relations between the two within society..." So there's that. And that, I think, is important. Biography being the place of the ancestors. Biography is to history as synchronic is to diachronic. And where the axes cross, there you are. Hello. What am I doing in this bookstore on such a sunny day, and what is this pattern I am making on the rug, crossing from Anthropology to True Crime, from Literary Criticism to Science Fiction to Current Affairs? If I left a trail of breadcrumbs maybe, or better, some blacklight signature visible only to myself, would I recognize the emblem it made? Would it maybe spell out, like a ouija board's planchette, the question I am asking? Don't worry if none of this makes sense. No need to adjust your set. I'm the one who should worry. And I do. Because I think there is something true hidden in all this obscurantism. Something clear and clean and one of these nights, you know? I'm gonna find out, pretty mama, what turns on your lights. Ray tracing. Backward chaining. I am stuck with these metaphors. Help! I'm being held prisoner in a Chinese fortune cookie factory. Down that alley there, yes, getting warmer: right between those two cultures. In the last two weeks (notice we're not changing paragraphs), at least three people told me that I *had* to go see A Beautiful Mind. So I finally did. Remember the scene where Nash is fooling with a cut crystal hi-ball glass at that Princeton reception? Prismatic. I remember seeing a book in Tokyo on the theory of reflections. The brass in the men's room at Fujitsu was polished to a mirror finish, and standing there pissing one day, I got it. There is a language for this, I thought. The crystal splits the sunlight, tracks up onto this other guy's bad tie. SFX, though you wouldn't necessarily know it took a Cray to bring it off. Ray tracing. I am stuck with these metaphors. I got it, yeah. But still I wondered: why me? Why did I *have* to see *this* movie? Is it that obvious? Am I that transparent? And if not, what do I think I've been doing here these many years now, writing all this confessional stuff? See me, hear me... feed me, Seymour. Let me show you these codes and ciphers. No, that's right, you're not cleared, are you? I must take them to the drop box. Carefully checking that I've not been followed. Better: I'll publish them in clear text. "Within the code is a deeper code," I wrote. Click on the URL above. See? No secrets here. Yesterday Eric Norlin came over. Eric is one of my closest friends. You've heard me mention him. He even has a website. Before he arrived, I called Laurie: "You've met Eric right? I mean, you've actually seen him, yes?" Just checking. Last week, I posted this to my blog: John F. Nash, Jr. - A Beautiful Mind http://www.nobel.se/economics/laureates/1994/nash-autobio.html I haven't seen the movie yet, but I plan to. Here's a clip from the real guy's autobiography on the Nobel site. "...at the present time I seem to be thinking rationally again in the style that is characteristic of scientists. However this is not entirely a matter of joy as if someone returned from physical disability to good physical health. One aspect of this is that rationality of thought imposes a limit on a person's concept of his relation to the cosmos. For example, a non-Zoroastrian could think of Zarathustra as simply a madman who led millions of naive followers to adopt a cult of ritual fire worship. But without his 'madness' Zarathustra would necessarily have been only another of the millions or billions of human individuals who have lived and then been forgotten." How few are conversant with madness. Because, I think, getting enough distance to see it requires a critical degree of respect for what it is. For what we are never completely, though we see with those same eyes. A degree of compassion for what is looking out through us. And maybe: looking out for us. Come, I will show you. Be not afraid. At which point, if you're even halfway sane, you're quaking in your boots. An interesting question then: if you're so fucking sane, how do you recognize this fear? Why does it taste and smell that way? An interesting answer: because under the hood, and despite the massive disavowals, we all pretty much know what's going on here. I went over my book outline with Eric, and about halfway through my convoluted explanation -- this chapter talks about Kurzweil, Dennett, Hofstadter, Minsky... this one of Darwin and Dawkins, Deleuze and Guattari, Andy Warhol, Ultravox... -- I saw my garage festooned with clippings from Life and Newsweek, Ladies Home Journal. Within the code, a deeper code. See how this bit here connects to that? Look closer. Diachronic, but with philology permanently deconstructed, we missed it. And who benefits from this silence? There's a chapter called "Gödel, Escher and Bachman-Turner Overdrive." Eric laughs. What was their biggest hit, I ask him. I had to look it up on Google, but he knows: Takin' Care of Business. "Yeah, that's right" I say. "The Skynet funding bill is passed. The system goes online August 4th, 1997." Visible shivers running down my spine: no fate but what we make it. And looping back into biography, at whose intersection with history I keep finding myself, I recall days in the brain lab at the University of Rochester. You could have a bright future here, they said. Neuroscience is just taking off, you could be in on the ground floor. Wolves in the distance, calling. The moon on fire. "Trip Going Well," the headline read in the kiosk outside the corner store, and I'm flashing on the Motor City 5, tears streaking the lead singer's face. Stardrive stroking the mainframes, baby, and you are here. So yeah sure, neuroscience. Little did they know. Nor I. Talking with Hans Moravec at CMU. "You're fucking crazy, man. There's more." And him saying, Chris, you're a hopeless romantic. Get used to it. I was writing proposals to DARPA then, so who was I to argue? Roger Penrose argued. That consciousness was not possible for a machine. But his argument depended on some tricky read on quantum physics so advanced, no one except his targets were inclined to parse the "proof," so pffft! Who cares? Which, as it turns out, has been the real question all along. Who wants to know? Wolfgang Pauli and Carl Jung, working another dimension of the yet-to-be-unified field. Synchronicity. Of course, I don't really believe it. Except when it happens. The crystal splits the spectrum and the radiations match. The pattern, as Bateson said, that connects. Or was it Chris Alexander's pattern without a name. Regular expressions raised to another plane entirely. Like a dream in which the phone is ringing, and you wake to find it really is. "Congratulations, you've just won a free round trip to Las Vegas." Yesterday afternoon. I was so angry, then so let down. Spam from every possible vector. Noise on the lists. The network darkening in all directions. Who benefits from all this silence? And when did SkyNet actually go online? What was I dreaming then? Pieces of yarn and string thumbtacked over feature spreads on summer reading, South American vacation cruises, film reviews. In 1944, Jean-Paul Sartre produced Huis Clos in Paris. The following year the United States incinerated two cities in Japan. Nine years later, Alan Turing ate a poisoned apple. No lie. No exit. Reading bookstores. Hard to describe. So easy to imagine patterns in the stars. An umbrella, an octopus. Do it again. Of course, they're not really "there," any more than Orion or Scorpius, Andromeda, Draco. Any more than the stories and myths, monsters and heroes we've projected against the night sky since the dawn of... well, I guess consciousness. Which Douglas Dennett will explain to you is all just a terrible mistake. Or, really, any more than the rationalized trippings of Douglas Dennett, and his cheerleading section: closet Extropians watching their denatured cognitive skies for The Singularity, no less fervent than evangelicals with an eye out for the Rapture, or hopeful unidentified skywatchers for the grand re-opening of Area 51. Conspiracy theories are another form of silence. Marginalization. These people are clearly mad. We can safely write them off. They are simply trying to make sense of their lives, imagining there is some pattern. How pathetic, these trivial fantasies. How touching. Cold comfort if you buy it, and you do. All the time. I know because I do it too. I don't believe it either. Not really. There is no pattern, no sense, no explanation. Just neural firings, random shadows of perceived experience, pleasure, pain, so what? The only problem is, I can't live this way. And neither can you. If you stare into an abyss long enough, said Nietzsche, it begins to stare back into you. Meaning, reading between the lines, that it becomes a projection, an anthropomorphic constellation. A fanciful story about who wants to know. Make my day. Right between the eyes. Nietzsche died mad, of course, as we know. Sure, it was probably syphilis. Or the wages of sin. Pick your poison. Another chapter of my book is titled Volunteer Slavery - The Science of the Lambs. It doesn't take a conspiracy theory to explain how we got here. Backchaining works just as well. We got here somehow, right? It didn't "just happen" and it serves someone's interest that we're here. Confused? Sure you are. So why not buy something? A nice pair of sneakers, maybe. A trip to Cancun. A new philosophy. You're a serious person, right? No illusions. No lingering fears. You're not about to be intimidated by some spooky old abyss. We have bioengineering, now. We will shape our own destiny. We have artificial intelligence, honey, right around the corner. Machines so much smarter than we are, we won't even know what they're thinking. Though, we're thinking, they'll probably be thinking how to clean up these carbon-based vermin that keep trying to debug them. As if we could even follow the revised requirements specs. Ah well, it's been a good run overall. Hasn't it? Why be greedy. Might as well face up to the fact that we're finished here, whatever it was we came to do. What happened between 1936 when Chaplin made Modern Times and 1963 when Warhol said "I want to be a machine"? Download me, Jesus! Into your immortal chipset, OS by Microsoft. Gives a whole new meaning to the phrase, Blue Screen of Death. John Connor, where are you now? And then, of course, there's that little matter of time travel to be resolved. Probably right around the same corner with AI. Funny how it all works out in the end. The terminator even becomes your pal, best dad a boy could have. Biography and history. Maybe, I thought, it's time to get personal. And as soon as I thought it, a flash of synchronicity dumped to my screen: People who bought that notion also bought... The Drama of the Gifted Child: The Search for the True Self by Alice Miller http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0465016901/entropygradientr ...which has nothing to do with gifted children. The original title was Prisoners of Childhood, far more to the point. I can't say a lot about this one yet, except that it was like a visit to the gypsy -- you know the one. This is my story, right down the line. And I'll bet you five bucks it describes the abyss into which Nietzsche found himself staring. Whose eyes were those staring back? O Superman. O judge. O Mom and Dad. Mom and Dad... The question is: what did Laurie Anderson know, and when? Before 9-11? Well yeah, of course. As far back as 1986, the invisible hand was already tipped: This is the hand, the hand that takes. Here come the planes. They're American planes. Made in America. Smoking or non-smoking? Before the Internet and the dot.com runnup? Before the takedown? Before our mongoloid pitbull president and Operation Enduring Freedom? Before Enron? Yeah, a long time before that. So hold me, Mom... in your long arms. Your petrochemical arms. Your military arms. In your electronic arms. Big Science. Hallelujah. There is no conspiracy. Not really. Yet all the conditions have been met to resurrect Ronnie's Alzheimer's fugue: the Strategic Defense Initiative, SDI, Star Wars. AOL keyword: SkyNet. Alice Miller says the obverse of depression is grandiosity. And I'm wondering, another word for triumphalism maybe? Small clues in the grand scheme of things, as if we believed there was any Grand Scheme. But wait. But think. There had better be one, even if we have to make it up. Even if we go mad, become irrational, against all reason, worship fire. Fire beats zero Kelvin any day. Believe it. Thus spake Zarathustra. When I began working on this book a year ago, I thought it would be easy. I was planning to call it Voice v. Institution. Then I began to ask myself what institutions are. I began to ask what voice is. And worse: where it comes from. What's standing in its way. Everything you've been told, a lie. Everything you've been sold, a bill of goods. A wave of rage is building, awesome, terrible, and when it breaks, the heart will speak. No fate but what we make. I'll be back. The Management __________________________________________________________ REFERENCES Source: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/egr-list/message/243 ********************************************************** Valued Readers: ..... I... figured I'd fill in the blanks on some of the allusions I dropped en passant in the last send. Stupidly, I thought this would take me maybe an hour. Two days later, I have wasted about half a million dollars of my (VERY) precious time on this absurd exercise. And for what? This had better pay off or I'm going to start charging for EGR. I figure something in the vicinity of $800/year would be about right. However, writing for two readers wouldn't be half as much fun. So listen, you slacker halfwits, whip out your VISA cards, and let's go shopping! btw, the left-justified context quotes are just that, not section headings. Ah shit, why am I telling you this? You'll figure it out. And oh yeah, nota fucking bene: many of these citations should in no way be taken as ENDORSEMENTS. I have recently been forcing myself to buy books by people I despise. Call it a rare exercise in humility. On the other hand, some are five-star favorites. I leave it to you to decide which is which. Why not be safe? BUY THEM ALL!!! The Invasion of the Body Snatchers Jack Finney http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684852586/entropygradientr VHS: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6300208508/entropygradientr The Terminator (VHS) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000JGEH/entropygradientr triumphalism... The End of History Francis Fukyermama http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0380720027/entropygradientr Will the Circle Be Unbroken (CD) Jimmy Martin http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000005HN/entropygradientr The Oxford English Dictionary (CD-ROM) Edmund Weiner (Editor) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195215737/entropygradientr Biography: Ho-Chi Minh (VHS) actual Amazon quote - "Starring: Ho-Chi Minh, et al." http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0767015290/entropygradientr Course in General Linguistics Ferdinand de Saussure http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812690230/entropygradientr Paul de Man essay... The Norton Anthology of Theory and Criticism Vincent B. Leitch (Editor) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0393974294/entropygradientr The Sociological Imagination C. Wright Mills http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195133730/entropygradientr One of these Nights (CD) The Eagles http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002GXX/entropygradientr Ray Tracing... Realistic Ray Tracing Peter Shirley http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1568811101/entropygradientr A Beautiful Mind: The Life of Mathematical Genius and Nobel Laureate John Nash Sylvia Nasar http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0743224574/entropygradientr the theory of reflections... Opticks: Or a Treatise of the Reflections, Inflections and Colours of Light Sir Isaac Newton http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0486602052/entropygradientr [*not* the book I found in Tokyo, now long out of print I guess] what do I think I've been doing here... The Bombast Transcripts: Rants and Screeds of Rageboy Christopher Locke http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0738206334/entropygradientr See me, hear me... Tommy (CD, includes "We're Not Gonna Take It") The Who http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002OZY/entropygradientr feed me, Seymour... Little Shop of Horrors (VHS 1986) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6300271285/entropygradientr Hey, I'm your genie I'm your friend I'm your willing slave... Take a chance, just feed me, yeah. You know what kinda eats, what kinda red-hot treats, what kinda sticky licky sweets I crave... [Audrey II, as sung by Levi Stubbs of The Four Tops] "Within the code is a deeper code," I wrote... Gonzo Marketing: Winning Through Worst Practices Christopher Locke http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0738204080/entropygradientr Eric Norlin... He even has a website... The Titanic Deck Chair Rearrangement Corporation http://www.tdcrc.com I called Laurie... Laurie Doctor Studios http://www.lauriedoctor.com Zarathustra as simply a madman... Thus Spake Zarathustra Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140047484/entropygradientr I posted this to my blog... All Noise - All the Time http://www.rageboy.com/blogger.html The Age of Spiritual Machines: When Computers Exceed Human Intelligence Ray Kurzweil http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140282025/entropygradientr Gödel, Escher and Bach Douglas Hofstadter http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0465026567/entropygradientr The Society of Mind Marvin Minsky http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671657135/entropygradientr Darwin Among the Machines: The Evolution of Global Intelligence George B. Dyson http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0738200301/entropygradientr Unweaving the Rainbow: Science, Delusion and the Appetite for Wonder Richard Dawkins http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0618056734/entropygradientr Anti-Oedipus: Capitalism and Schizophrenia Gilles Deleuze and Felix Guattari http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0816612250/entropygradientr The Philosophy of Andy Warhol: From A to B and Back Again Andy Warhol http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0156717204/entropygradientr Island Years (CD, includes "I Want to be a Machine") Ultravox http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000ID2Y/entropygradientr Gödel, Escher and Bachman Turner Overdrive... Best of... (CD, includes "Takin' Care of Business) Bachman Turner Overdrive http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004YLPV/entropygradientr "The Skynet funding bill is passed. The system goes online August 4th, 1997"... Terminator 2: Judgment Day (VHS) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000JGEI/entropygradientr Visible shivers running down my spine... My Aim Is True (CD, includes "Watching the Detectives") Elvis Costello http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005MLU0/entropygradientr Neuroscience is just taking off... The New Cognitive Neurosciences Michael S. Gazzaniga (Editor) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0262071959/entropygradientr Motor City 5... Kick out the Jams (CD, includes "Starship") MC5 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000005IS1/entropygradientr Robot: Mere Machine to Transcendent Mind Hans Moravec http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195136306/entropygradientr The Emperor's New Mind: Concerning Computers, Minds, and the Laws of Physics Roger Penrose http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0140145346/entropygradientr Synchronicity: An Acausal Connecting Principle Carl Jung and Wolfgang Pauli http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0691017948/entropygradientr Steps to an Ecology of Mind: Collected Essays in Anthropology, Psychiatry, Evolution, and Epistemology Gregory Bateson http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0226039056/entropygradientr A Pattern Language: Towns, Buildings, Construction Christopher Alexander, Sara Ishikawa, Murray Silverstein http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195019199/entropygradientr Regular expressions raised to another plane entirely... Mastering Regular Expressions: Powerful Techniques for Perl and Other Tools Jeffrey E. Friedl and Andy Oram (Editors) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1565922573/entropygradientr Noise on the lists... http://www.topica.com/lists/cluetrain/ No Exit and Three Other Plays Jean-Paul Sartre http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679725164/entropygradientr Consciousness Explained Daniel C. Dennett http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0316180661/entropygradientr The Singularity... The Spike: How Our Lives Are Being Transformed by Rapidly Advancing Technologies Damien Broderick http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312877811/entropygradientr Area 51... Dreamland: Travels Inside the Secret World of Roswell and Area 51 Phil Patton http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0375753850/entropygradientr Volunteer Slavery... Does Your House Have Lions (CD, includes "Volunteered Slavery") Rahsaan Roland Kirk http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000332F/entropygradientr The Science of the Lambs... The Silence of the Lambs Thomas Harris ("with some fava beans and a nice Chianti") http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0312924585/entropygradientr (VHS) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0792842111/entropygradientr We have bioengineering now... As the Future Catches You: How Genomics and Other Forces Are Changing Your Life, Your Work, Your Investments, Your World Juan Enriquez http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0609609033/entropygradientr We have artificial intelligence, honey... Beyond Humanity: Cyberevolution and Future Minds Gregory S. Paul and Earl Cox http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1886801215/entropygradientr Modern Times (VHS) Charlie Chaplin http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6302561841/entropygradientr The Drama of the Gifted Child: The Search for the True Self Alice Miller http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0465016901/entropygradientr Thus Spoke Zarathustra: A Book for All and None Friedrich Nietzsche http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679601759/entropygradientr So hold me, Mom... in your long arms... Big Science (CD, includes "O Superman") Laurie Anderson http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000002KNM/entropygradientr our mongoloid pitbull president and Operation Enduring Freedom... get your war on [5 stars: highly recommended] http://www.mnftiu.cc/mnftiu.cc/war.html Enron... The Enron Corporation: Corporate Complicity in Human Rights Violations Human Rights Watch Staff http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1564321975/entropygradientr Ronnie's Alzheimer's... The Forgetting - Alzheimer's: Portrait of an Epidemic David Shenk http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385498373/entropygradientr Strategic Defense Initiative... Symbolic Defense: The Cultural Significance of the Strategic Defense Initiative Edward Tabor Linenthal and Paul Boyer http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/025201619X/entropygradientr I'll be back... The UFO Anthology Vol.1 (CD-ROM) Dreamland Interactive http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0966965108/entropygradientr Hasta la vista, baby. The Management _____________________________________________________________________ to subscribe or UNSUBSCRIBE - c'mon Bunky, you can figure it out if you try real hard - send a blank message to egr-subscribe@t... or egr-unsubscribe@t... - or http://www.rageboy.com/sub-up.html http://www.rageboy.com http://www.topica.com/lists/egr