View Full Version : Chinese origin of 'Lathe of Heaven'
Earl Snake-Hips Tucker
06-25-2007, 10:33 AM
I
saw an interview with Ursula K. Leguin some years ago, and she
mentioned the English translation of the Chinese quotation from which
she took the title for her book Lathe of Heaven
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lathe_of_Heaven), the interview being
done during the time of the remake of the new and re-release of the old
movies. She made a passing comment that after writing the book, she
found that the translation of the quote was actually pretty inaccurate,
but didn't elaborate.
Anyone out there can do any better? I don't have access to the Chinese source, so I can't post what it looks like.
Autolycus
06-25-2007, 03:19 PM
I cant help you, but I will bump this post for you out of curiosity for an answer ^^
Richard Parker
06-25-2007, 03:40 PM
The
original phrase is "tian jun." I don't think tianjun is used in modern
chinese. Tian means sky or heaven. Jun means even, fair, or equal.
So, heavenly equalizer or some such. Lathe sounds good to me if you're going to translate metaphorically.
Earl Snake-Hips Tucker
06-25-2007, 07:21 PM
Cool! Thanks!
jovan
06-25-2007, 08:24 PM
So, heavenly equalizer or some such. Lathe sounds good to me if you're going to translate metaphorically.
I think that's a bit off. The expression comes from the works of Taoist
philosopher Chuang Tzu. The specific passage that Leguin is supposed to
have taken it from is this:
He whose mind is thus grandly fixed emits a Heavenly light. In him who
emits this heavenly light men see the (True) man. When a man has
cultivated himself (up to this point), thenceforth he remains constant
in himself. When he is thus constant in himself, (what is merely) the
human element will leave him, but Heaven will help him. Those whom
their human element has left we call the people of Heaven. Those whom
Heaven helps we call the Sons of Heaven. Those who would by learning
attain to this seek for what they cannot learn. Those who would by
effort attain to this, attempt what effort can never effect. Those who
aim by reasoning to reach it reason where reasoning has no place. To
know to stop where they cannot arrive by means of knowledge is the
highest attainment. Those who cannot do this will be destroyed on the
lathe of Heaven.
It's true that the last sentence isn't particularly well translated. The original is:
若有不即是者,天鈞敗之。
I think "lose to the heavenly scales" is closer. In Chuang Tzu's
philosophy, balance is of prime importance, and it is symbolized by a
great heavenly scale, which is what he's talking about here. It's not
an "equalizer" but rather something something with which your soul is
weighted, with the goal of achieving balance between all things. If you
do not follow the path laid out in the book, the heavenly scale will be
out of balance.
English translation:
http://nothingistic.org/library/chuangtzu/chuang35.html
Chinese original:
http://www.ltivs.ilc.edu.tw/library/elecbooks/books/chuang/out/c23.htm
Richard Parker
06-25-2007, 09:21 PM
Heavenly harmonizer, perhaps (with extra points for alliteration).
The English translation you link to has it as "lathe" as well, I see. Is that how the phrase is conventionally translated?
jovan
06-25-2007, 09:56 PM
Heavenly harmonizer, perhaps (with extra points for alliteration).
"Harmonizer" suggests that it's something that brings balance. It
doesn't, it measures balance. It's like the scales of justice, or those
used to judge who will enter heaven in Christianity. You can also see
it as the universe's balance itself, but I do not think it is to be
seen as something that "harmonizes" or gives balance.
The English translation you link to has it as "lathe" as well, I see. Is that how the phrase is conventionally translated?
I don't know.
Richard Parker
06-25-2007, 10:19 PM
"Harmonizer"
suggests that it's something that brings balance. It doesn't, it
measures balance. It's like the scales of justice, or those used to
judge who will enter heaven in Christianity. You can also see it as the
universe's balance itself, but I do not think it is to be seen as
something that "harmonizes" or gives balance.
It isn't clear to me what you're basing your argument on. Do you have a
textual defense for your claim? In this translation
(http://chinese.dsturgeon.net/text.pl?node=2957&if=en) of the
Zhuangzi, it speaks of the heavenly element, which it equates to the
lathe of heaven, as harmonizing.
Are you just arguing from general Chinese metaphysical principles?
jovan
06-25-2007, 11:29 PM
From the Chinese text project:
是以聖人和之以是非,而休乎天鈞,是之謂兩行。
Therefore the sagely man brings together a dispute in its affirmations
and denials, and rests in the equal fashioning of Heaven. Both sides of
the question are admissible.
Lin Yutang (http://www.religiousworlds.com/taoism/cz-text2.html) translates the passage above as:
Wherefore the true Sage brings all the contraries together and rests in
the natural Balance of Heaven. This is called (the principle of
following) two courses (at once).
The word "鈞" was a measure of weight until the Ming era and is thus associated with scales.
The original Chinese text you linked to doesn't include "天鈞". "Tempered
and harmonised by the Heavenly element in our nature" corresponds to:
和以天倪
In this case, the important concept is "天倪" (tian-ni). Here's what a
Taiwanese researcher
(http://www.taiwanclassic.com/Teps/ec/ecjnlarticleView.aspx?jnlcattype=1&jnlptype=1&jnltype=462&jnliid=586&issueiid=22514&atliid=262829)
has to say about the concepts of tian-jun and tian-ni:
1. Tian-Nĺ is a natural borderline. Different from the discrimination
in common sense, this borderline blurs discrimination into mixture. 2.
Tian-Jun is an equal natural principle, which differs from the
generally sensed equality. While the equality in general sense is
contrary to inequality, Tian-Jun transcends this relativity: sameness
being the same and diversity being the same, too.
What's very difficult when translating classical Chinese texts,
especially philosophical ones, is that very often the important
concepts have no equivalent in English. Translators often seem to not
agree on term, which complicates things greatly for English readers.
Richard Parker
06-25-2007, 11:37 PM
The original Chinese text you linked to doesn't include "天鈞".
Yes, it does. At the end of the second paragraph, it quotes, "天均者,天倪也."
But thanks for the further info, I'll browse it.
jovan
06-26-2007, 01:53 AM
By the way, if you can read Chinese, the full article I linked to can be read here:
http://www.lib.ndhu.edu.tw/libhtml/series/200608/8-027-054.pdf
In it, the author discusses what the origin of the expression tian-jun
might be. One of the possible meanings of the jun character is
"potter's wheel". This is where the English translators got "lathe".
However, the author states that this is one of several hypotheses.
The first meaning of 鈞 was a unit of measure. From there, it came to
mean "average" and "equivalent" and later "to measure". I couldn't find
where the "potter's wheel" meaning came from, but I find that the use
of "lathe" in English distracts from the more contextually accurate
notion of "balance" and "equilibrium", even though "lathe" might be
somewhat etymologically correct.
Incidently, if you switch the two characters around, you get: 鈞天, which
is one of the nine heavens, more specifically, the middle heaven.
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