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Earl Snake-Hips Tucker
06-25-2007, 10:33 AM
I saw an interview with Ursula K. Leguin some years ago, and she mentioned the English translation of the Chinese quotation from which she took the title for her book Lathe of Heaven (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lathe_of_Heaven), the interview being done during the time of the remake of the new and re-release of the old movies. She made a passing comment that after writing the book, she found that the translation of the quote was actually pretty inaccurate, but didn't elaborate.

Anyone out there can do any better? I don't have access to the Chinese source, so I can't post what it looks like.

Autolycus
06-25-2007, 03:19 PM
I cant help you, but I will bump this post for you out of curiosity for an answer ^^

Richard Parker
06-25-2007, 03:40 PM
The original phrase is "tian jun." I don't think tianjun is used in modern chinese. Tian means sky or heaven. Jun means even, fair, or equal.

So, heavenly equalizer or some such. Lathe sounds good to me if you're going to translate metaphorically.

Earl Snake-Hips Tucker
06-25-2007, 07:21 PM
Cool! Thanks!

jovan
06-25-2007, 08:24 PM
So, heavenly equalizer or some such. Lathe sounds good to me if you're going to translate metaphorically.
I think that's a bit off. The expression comes from the works of Taoist philosopher Chuang Tzu. The specific passage that Leguin is supposed to have taken it from is this:
He whose mind is thus grandly fixed emits a Heavenly light. In him who emits this heavenly light men see the (True) man. When a man has cultivated himself (up to this point), thenceforth he remains constant in himself. When he is thus constant in himself, (what is merely) the human element will leave him, but Heaven will help him. Those whom their human element has left we call the people of Heaven. Those whom Heaven helps we call the Sons of Heaven. Those who would by learning attain to this seek for what they cannot learn. Those who would by effort attain to this, attempt what effort can never effect. Those who aim by reasoning to reach it reason where reasoning has no place. To know to stop where they cannot arrive by means of knowledge is the highest attainment. Those who cannot do this will be destroyed on the lathe of Heaven.
It's true that the last sentence isn't particularly well translated. The original is:
若有不即是者,天鈞敗之。
I think "lose to the heavenly scales" is closer. In Chuang Tzu's philosophy, balance is of prime importance, and it is symbolized by a great heavenly scale, which is what he's talking about here. It's not an "equalizer" but rather something something with which your soul is weighted, with the goal of achieving balance between all things. If you do not follow the path laid out in the book, the heavenly scale will be out of balance.

English translation:
http://nothingistic.org/library/chuangtzu/chuang35.html

Chinese original:
http://www.ltivs.ilc.edu.tw/library/elecbooks/books/chuang/out/c23.htm

Richard Parker
06-25-2007, 09:21 PM
Heavenly harmonizer, perhaps (with extra points for alliteration).

The English translation you link to has it as "lathe" as well, I see. Is that how the phrase is conventionally translated?

jovan
06-25-2007, 09:56 PM
Heavenly harmonizer, perhaps (with extra points for alliteration).
"Harmonizer" suggests that it's something that brings balance. It doesn't, it measures balance. It's like the scales of justice, or those used to judge who will enter heaven in Christianity. You can also see it as the universe's balance itself, but I do not think it is to be seen as something that "harmonizes" or gives balance.

The English translation you link to has it as "lathe" as well, I see. Is that how the phrase is conventionally translated?
I don't know.

Richard Parker
06-25-2007, 10:19 PM
"Harmonizer" suggests that it's something that brings balance. It doesn't, it measures balance. It's like the scales of justice, or those used to judge who will enter heaven in Christianity. You can also see it as the universe's balance itself, but I do not think it is to be seen as something that "harmonizes" or gives balance.

It isn't clear to me what you're basing your argument on. Do you have a textual defense for your claim? In this translation (http://chinese.dsturgeon.net/text.pl?node=2957&if=en) of the Zhuangzi, it speaks of the heavenly element, which it equates to the lathe of heaven, as harmonizing.

Are you just arguing from general Chinese metaphysical principles?

jovan
06-25-2007, 11:29 PM
From the Chinese text project:

是以聖人和之以是非,而休乎天鈞,是之謂兩行。
Therefore the sagely man brings together a dispute in its affirmations and denials, and rests in the equal fashioning of Heaven. Both sides of the question are admissible.

Lin Yutang (http://www.religiousworlds.com/taoism/cz-text2.html) translates the passage above as:
Wherefore the true Sage brings all the contraries together and rests in the natural Balance of Heaven. This is called (the principle of following) two courses (at once).

The word "鈞" was a measure of weight until the Ming era and is thus associated with scales.

The original Chinese text you linked to doesn't include "天鈞". "Tempered and harmonised by the Heavenly element in our nature" corresponds to:
和以天倪

In this case, the important concept is "天倪" (tian-ni). Here's what a Taiwanese researcher (http://www.taiwanclassic.com/Teps/ec/ecjnlarticleView.aspx?jnlcattype=1&jnlptype=1&jnltype=462&jnliid=586&issueiid=22514&atliid=262829) has to say about the concepts of tian-jun and tian-ni:
1. Tian-Nĺ is a natural borderline. Different from the discrimination in common sense, this borderline blurs discrimination into mixture. 2. Tian-Jun is an equal natural principle, which differs from the generally sensed equality. While the equality in general sense is contrary to inequality, Tian-Jun transcends this relativity: sameness being the same and diversity being the same, too.

What's very difficult when translating classical Chinese texts, especially philosophical ones, is that very often the important concepts have no equivalent in English. Translators often seem to not agree on term, which complicates things greatly for English readers.

Richard Parker
06-25-2007, 11:37 PM
The original Chinese text you linked to doesn't include "天鈞".

Yes, it does. At the end of the second paragraph, it quotes, "天均者,天倪也."

But thanks for the further info, I'll browse it.

jovan
06-26-2007, 01:53 AM
By the way, if you can read Chinese, the full article I linked to can be read here:
http://www.lib.ndhu.edu.tw/libhtml/series/200608/8-027-054.pdf

In it, the author discusses what the origin of the expression tian-jun might be. One of the possible meanings of the jun character is "potter's wheel". This is where the English translators got "lathe". However, the author states that this is one of several hypotheses.

The first meaning of 鈞 was a unit of measure. From there, it came to mean "average" and "equivalent" and later "to measure". I couldn't find where the "potter's wheel" meaning came from, but I find that the use of "lathe" in English distracts from the more contextually accurate notion of "balance" and "equilibrium", even though "lathe" might be somewhat etymologically correct.

Incidently, if you switch the two characters around, you get: 鈞天, which is one of the nine heavens, more specifically, the middle heaven.